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Monday, August 09, 2004

THE SACRED AND THE PROFANE

I stopped by Rafin Grimm's floating castle last week, to ask him why he'd disassembled his Roman Catholic cathedral. When I got there, however, he already had company. So while Raffin and I talked about the status of spirituality in Second Life, a curvy brunette in a sculpted fetish bikini went on waving her riding crop at a muscular man with nothing on but a pair of crotchless black leather chaps.

"I am Catholic, and very in touch with my relationship with God," says Rafin. He's a tall young man with dark hair, in stylish gray slacks and a black, longsleeve shirt. And while he adds that he's neither a perfect Christian, "I try to be good and do good things. That's what the church was going to be."

Things didn't turn out the way he planned, however. I discovered this through fellow Second Life blogger Jonathan Akebono, who'd heard about Rafin's church, and recently asked him where it had gone.

"Actually, I took my church down awhile ago," Grimm replied. Akebono told him he was looking for a place in Second Life to pray, but Grimm couldn't help him there. "It was just causing a lot more problems than good. And nobody seemed to use it. I think it is funny... people like having sex clubs and all that here, but you build a church and it is like you are the biggest jerk in the world."

So now I'm in the lobby Rafin Grimm's spacious home, trying to learn more while the bikini-clad wench Phaeton continues her vixenish ministrations on the man in the leather chaps. "When I built the church," he tells me, "there were a few [residents] who were very supportive of the idea of a church, but not of the church itself."

Behind us, the man in chaps has left the building, but he's followed hard upon by Angel Coral, a relatively demure redhead in a vinyl miniskirt and a steel-studded dog collar, who joins Ms. Phaeton for still more innuendo-drenched activity.

"I found myself in a position where I felt I had to constantly defend the Catholic church and the Christian religion in general to people," Raffin tells me. "And I didn't quite know how to do that... I don't think I'm qualified to correctly answer everyone's questions." What's more, he adds, "I found that most people I came across in Second Life were atheist... Like I said, some people were interested. But, I felt mostly that people thought I was trying to make a statement with the church."

"People told you that?"

"No, but I got a lot of arguments about it-- debates, I should say. Mostly, people would say things like 'I think it's cool that you built a church, but I don't believe in God.' Stuff like that. Which of course turned into a conversation/debate."

While we go on with the interview, wench and Angel gambol around Raffin's fountain, and when they hear that our conversation has turned to churches, they start talking about various M-rated activities possible in a confessional booth, on an altar, and so on. ("Though I never did any of that in Raffin's church," wench adds hastily, "I respect his beliefs.")

I walk with Raffin to another room, where he takes out some of the church items that he's since archived in his inventory, to give me a sense of what the interior looked like-- a marble altar, a burnished tabernacle, and so on.

While he does that, I peek back at wench and Angel, still being sassy in the next room. I ask Raffin what he thinks of them, sashaying around his place, "talking all sexy and such".

"Well," says Raffin, adjusting the altar, "wench is my friend. A lot of my friends here are like that." He laughs. "It's not like I am judgemental and only talk to people who talk about God."

I see other churches in Second Life, from time to time, so I ask Raffin if he's talked with their owners about his concerns.

"At the time, there were only maybe one or two other people interested in building a church that I knew of," he says. "The whole idea kind [of] went way past what I had expected. Like I said, I felt kinda isolated there." And so after a time, he disassembled the stained glass windows and the spire and the rest of it, and went on with other projects.

Around then, it suddenly hits me why Rafin and his church items look so familar.

"Oh wait," I say, "this [was] the church I wrote about a few months ago!"

Rafin nods, laughs.

"You were the angel!" He says "Yeah" and laughs again.

Now I'm confused. "[L]ike twenty people came to that mass [I profiled]." Seems like he had more than enough interested residents, to keep the place running.

"Well," Rafin admits, with another chuckle. "most of them were friends. And atheist."

I ask him if he thinks Second Life tends to attract atheists, and he says no. "I just think it is becoming more and more the belief of society."

"Maybe people are more religious than you think," I speculate, "but they don't feel comfortable bringing it in-world, for one reason or another."

"Oh I agree," Rafin says, "But I don't think they agree with organized religion... I know a lot of younger people, especially, seem to stray from it." (Though Rafin adds that offline, he's 24, himself.)

"I think probably," he goes on, "most people do things here that they wouldn't do in real life. And let's face it, that's what is fun about games like this. Being able to live the world in a different way..."

"Or," I suggest, "[to] get the 'sin" and temptation out of their system in Second Life, perhaps." Because I couldn't begin to count the number of residents who roleplay the promiscuously sexy minx or the swinging, hardbodied stud-- then later describe themselves to me as conservative and happily married, in real life.

Rafin agrees with that. However, I know enough about Christian theology, to see a possible moral flaw, in that disjunction. "Of course," I observe, "Christ said [that] fantasizing about adultery is as bad as adultery itself."

"Well..." Rafin demurs. "I just had a real life discussion about that. Things get taken too literally sometimes... sooo many people seem to be dead set against the Catholic church, and have NO IDEA what they preach." And we end up talking a little bit about his view of sexual morals, in relation to his faith.

The very kind of conversation, I imagine, that finally convinced Rafin to keep his cathedral out of Second Life.

"I thought it was amazing," wench tells me later, speaking of her friend's house of worship. "I was sad that the other residents made him feel uncomfortable enough to take it down. It wasn't there long at all."

As for wench Phaeton, she says she was baptised Brethern ("back woods [sect]"). "I've been intrigued with religion since a child and have had studied bits of most of it," she adds.

Now, however, "I don't know what I believe."

Earlier on, I ask Rafin if he still hopes to do anything that involves his religious faith.

"I'd like to," Rafin Grimm answers. "But if it is just going to be for me, I don't see a point."

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Comments

As a lifelong atheist, people's discomfort with religion in SL isn't very surprising to me. For me, and I imagine for many others, one of the things I've found most remarkable and wonderful about SL is that the percentage of atheists and agnostics is far higher than it is in the real world. Atheists are perhaps the last true minority in the United States against whom discrimination is not only common, but encouraged (and in many ways institutionalized). When you spend your entire life being told that you're wrong and a sinner and not deserving of the same rights as others, you're loathe to see one of the few refuges any of us have found turn into a replica of the real world. The plight of atheists is similar to that of gays and lesbians, but they are decades ahead in terms of gaining a level of acceptance that is still denied nonbelievers. When Bush Sr. was campaigning for the presidency a reporter from the American Atheists news journal asked him if he recognized the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. Bush responded, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." Imagine if he had made that comment about Blacks or any other minority. Now, with the current Bush in the Whitehouse doing everything he can to erode separation of church and state and pander to fundamentalist Christians it's more obvious than ever that nothing has changed. If anything the situation has gotten worse. Religion is perhaps the most divisive force at work in the world today and many of us are a bit touchy about having it encroach on our Second Lives. While Rafin and many other openly religious people I've met in SL are very open minded and respectful of those different than themselves, they are the minority among believers in my experience, and I imagine the experience of most atheists. There are good reasons why most of us remain silent in our first lives.

Posted by: Chip Midnight at Aug 10, 2004 2:44:07 PM

If anyone does want to debate religious matters, Monday night at Thinkers' is Theology/Religion night :-)

Posted by: Jinny the Squinny at Aug 12, 2004 12:43:03 PM

Being more of a wildcard myself than an atheist I still have to agree with the previous poster. This is the same elsewhere as it is in the US. Amongst all the countries I have been to, the most understanding and comfortable people I have been amongst religion-wise are the Turks of Sw-Turkey ( liberal islams ). They recognise that Christianity of most forms, Islam and Judaism are one and the same religion, and thus we are all one and the same people. This struck me as really well thought through, and not without a truth in there somewhere, even if I don't find myself explicitly within any of those religions.

One quite good writer said: "All gods are true gods and do exist for real, as long as a sufficient mass of prople truly believe in them" - I find that to be my royal truth :)

Posted by: Wishbash Broom at Aug 12, 2004 12:52:01 PM

Wow, I find this quite distressing. I'm a Christian myself, but I've seen so little evidence of any Christian activities anywhere in SL that I haven't even bothered to look for it. I mean, for me SL is basically a place to casually socialize with people and yak about building and stuff. I rarely get truly personal with anyone. It's hard enough talking with real-life friends about my faith...even harder in virtual reality.

I did do a search for "Christian" in the SL groups and only found one...and it didn't really look like it was doing much (and hardly anyone was in it). That's a real shame.

I don't buy the anti-religion arguments. Fact is, there's a huge bias against Christianity now in the US in many centers of government, science, and education. Thanks to Bush and outspoken conservatives, some of that is beginning to change, but it's slow. What atheists want isn't freedom of religion, it's freedom "from" religion. Sorry, but that doesn't work. Everything is a religion...even atheism. And nowhere in the constitution does it say you can't have religion in government. It just says that the government can't establish an official religion. The concept of "separation of church and state" only applies to government legal power over what people believe (i. e., there shouldn't be any). However, the concept has been completely distorted in modern society, so now people think that means we should put religion in a box and then ignore it. Sorry, you can't do that. :)

On the other hand, the problem I see with organized religion is that organization has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is a personal faith. It's between you and Jesus. Nobody else. Nobody else has authority over your life. Only Jesus. A Person. Someone you have an intimate personal relationship with. That love, that trust, that bond...often gets overlooked when man's sinful power struggles muddy the waters. And that's another real shame.

Anyway, this has inspired me to start looking around SL more closely for Christian elements. Maybe we can start a fellowship or something. Something a bit more intimate and welcoming than a "Church", perhaps. :)

God bless you,

Jared

Posted by: Jared White at Aug 20, 2004 10:58:06 AM

The establishment clause of the constitution means exactly what you'd like to believe it doesn't... that religion has no place in government, and government has no place in religion. I think the following from James Madison (father of the Constitution) sums it up quite well...

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together" ~James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

Posted by: Chip Midnight at Aug 23, 2004 6:13:22 PM

Chip, the quote you posted by James Madison supports my position exactly -- i. e., that government should have no legal power over religion, and visa versa. But nowhere in his quote do I see a desire to see any expression of religion by individuals within the government annihilated, nor do I see a wish that the government should discriminate against religious organizations compared to secular organizations when it comes to supporting groups like charities, schools, etc. Again, I tell you that the government's job is to support freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion -- which is apparently what a lot of people would now like to see. Well, all I can say is...that dog don't hunt.

Posted by: Jared White at Aug 26, 2004 11:54:49 PM

Jared, you might find this article from the Washington Post interesting. It reports the findings of a study on the contribution of religious afiliations with polarizing political positions. Personally I think it's exactly this that Madison was talking about and hoping to avoid. Government has to be about compromise. Religion is uncompromising.

"What did surprise him, D'Antonio said, was the degree to which religious affiliation helped create an ideological divide between Republicans and Democrats that virtually ensures a partisan split on most votes before lawmakers."

" In interviews and in their study, which has not been published, D'Antonio and Tuch said they are concerned that the polarization of Congress will undermine the country's two-party system, which was designed for consensus building.

As ideology has taken over and policy debates have become uncompromisingly brutal, many moderate Americans give up on the political process as potential officeholders or voters, D'Antonio said. "A significant portion of the public has been turned off by the political system, leaving the extremes to fight it out."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39968-2004Aug27.html

Posted by: Chip Midnight at Aug 28, 2004 1:14:30 AM

Hmm,

I've seen several griefings related to not respecting a Sim owner's faith. I will sometime this week create a new group InterfaithSupportAlliance. People joining this group agree to respect another's faith whatever that faith is, and respect SL objects that the owner signifies are faith related objects. As owners of faith-based lands we can lock our lands to anyone not in this group, invite in anyone who wants to join, and kick out anyone that griefs a member's beliefs. This doesn't require us to have the same beliefs, just mutual respect of each other's right to believe what we do and have that belief honored. The land and group system supports this as of right now. For individual objects I will be coding an invisible object called Spirituality.. This object will allow reporting of abuse, and will display a message of the form: "This object has a spirituality level of --number from 1 to 5--. This is an object revered by at least one person and integral representative of their RL religous beliefs. Please respect those beliefs as you would have others respect your beliefs." The one sticky point on this is that all faiths would have to be allowed membership and given respect, regardless of their personal views.


Thoughts?

Strider Stirling

Posted by: Strider Stirling at Aug 29, 2004 8:01:51 AM

Interesting Strider, but I would hope also completely unnecessary. SL is all about self expression... whatever "self" entails for each individual. I personally have no problem with people expressing their faith in SL. What I would have a big problem with is people evangelizing in SL. There have already been problems with this in the past.

Jared, one thing I forgot to mention earlier in regards to your statement...

"nor do I see a wish that the government should discriminate against religious organizations compared to secular organizations when it comes to supporting groups like charities, schools, etc."

You might be interested to know that not a single dime of the money for the "faith-based initiative" program has gone to a non Christian charity.

Here's a quote from Jim Towey, director of the office for faith based initiatives...

"I haven't run into a pagan faith-based group yet, much less a pagan group that cares for the poor! Once you make it clear to any applicant that public money must go to public purposes and can't be used to promote ideology, the fringe groups lose interest. Helping the poor is tough work and only those with loving hearts seem drawn to it."

When you let faith be a factor in the decision making of government officials you get the above... bigotry. Keeping government secular isn't discriminatory. Anything faith-based inherantly is. Not only does Towey's comment show blatant bigotry, it's also hypocritical. If faith-based groups weren't interested in promoting ideology they wouldn't be faith-based in the first place. There's nothing preventing people of faith from participating in secular charities. The same isn't true in reverse. Faith-based groups are exempt from equal opportunity laws.

Posted by: Chip Midnight at Aug 29, 2004 10:45:13 AM

Strider, your idea is interesting, and I may want to join the group when you get it started. (IM me in-game, I'm Jared Psaltery). I haven't personally witnessed any faith-related incidents, but if there have been, that's really too bad.

Chip, I simply don't understand why you fail to realize the irony of "un-secular" discrimination. Your idea of the government being secular in the name of tolerance is rather nonsensical because discriminating against faith-based groups is just that...discrimination! You can't claim to be again discrimination and then support discrimination!

That's the problem with the entire idea of "tolerance". When people profess to be tolerant, what they really mean is that they're tolerant with the people who also claim to be "tolerant" -- usually the people on their side. As soon as someone actually makes a stand for what they believe, then it's time to discriminate against them. Hello! Can't you see the hypocrisy here?

As for Towey's comment, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. When IS the last time you came across a New Age/Pagan-themed charity group helping the poor? If there are any, and they applied to get government funds, I would certainly like to see them as equally-treated and equally-considered as a Christian group. Meanwhile, however, there are a huge number of Christian charity groups out there, no doubt about that. Telling them they can't get government funding and a "secular" group can is *discrimination*.

And what on earth does equal opportunity laws have anything to do with this? That sounds like a straw man to me. You can't discriminate against a group just because that group was founded by and for people with a specific viewpoint. This is a silly example, but if the "Purple Shirt and Red Pants Foundation" wanted to help the poor, and you had to wear a purple shirt and red pants to be in the foundation, would you want them to be denied government funding?

One last comment: politics aren't being polarized because of some nebulous "religious affiliation" notion. If anything, it's being polarized between the people that support the traditional Judeo-Christian worldview and the people that hate it. It's as simple as that. My question is: who's being tolerant of whom here?

Jared

Posted by: Jared White at Aug 30, 2004 3:21:26 PM

Thanks for your comments Jared, and for proving my point by expressing your views. Let me see if I can condense them down to their essence... it's okay for my tax money to go to religious groups who discriminate on the basis of religion for the purpose of evangelizing to the poor against my will. That about cover it? And you see nothing wrong with that? Who's being tolerant of whom indeed.

"If anything, it's being polarized between the people that support the traditional Judeo-Christian worldview and the people that hate it."

Guess that means in your view people who aren't members of a Judeo-Christian worldview are out of luck, eh? They automatically hate it because they do not support it? Sounds like a well developed persecution complex. Do you include Islam as supporters of the Judeo-Christian worldview? I do. So it's just certain flavors of Abrahamic religions that are okay? Sounds complicated. It's much easier, and more fair to ignore all of that and focus on the issues we all have in common. That's what secularism is about. Inclusion instead of exclusion. Everyone fits into a Secular view if they leave their religion at home. Only believers in the "traditional Judeo-Christian worldview" fit into the traditional Judeo-Christian worldview. Is that so difficult to understand? Secularism is not discriminatory. Religion, by definition, is. Therefor it has no place in a government of the people, by the people, and for the people... ALL the people... even those that don't adhere to the "traditional Judeo-Christian worldview."

Posted by: Chip Midnight at Sep 3, 2004 5:30:57 PM

Interesting topic, living in the USA I'm seeing a definate polorization of religious ideals, those who (this is mostly joking so don't get upset) suscribe to the Jesus as a gun-toting racist bigot who lets child molesting priests and the bishops who protect them slide but not people who have legal abortions and people trying to take the love your neighbor/peace side that drive cars but oppose any technological advancements that harm the environment (for other people).

How one religion can become so hopelessly bi-sected just proves to me that it is bunk and man made, but there is always a core truth to things we believe strongly in, perhaps by creating our own churches (without polester-suited pompador-encrusted snake-oil salesmen or burnt-out hippys expousing somewhere-elses'culture because they feel western culture is evil) we can get closer to the truth...

Posted by: daz groshomme at Mar 19, 2005 5:47:12 PM

i'm intrigued by the Second Life social interactions - you've written up a great post on religion in Second Life.

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